Building Teachers Up Beyond Professional Development with Barbara Burrington

Lynnette Arthur: Welcome to this episode of the Powerful Pedagogy. Today we have with us a woman who is near and dear to my heart. Barbara Burrington. Welcome, Barbara. She’s a phenomenal educational mentor who has worked with teachers. She’s known me since I was much younger in my practice and really has helped to guide me in you know, just sort of the ways that I think around my practice and what I do in the classroom and has inspired me so much with her own, just sort of passion for the classroom and, you know, her passion for children and just seeing them as capable and seeing them as you know, individuals with the rights so I just know that she’s going to impart so much information to you all. So welcome, Barbara. I am so happy to have you with us.

Barbara Burrington: I’m so honored to be here as you’re launching this new aspect of yourself and your career. Very needed.

LA: Absolutely. Now Barbie really just tell the people really quickly where are you recording from? Where are you sitting? What is that little circle window behind you?

BB: I am sitting in the main salon of our 32-foot tugboat named Irene that my husband and I just finished a 7000-mile circumnavigation of the American waterways from Florida all the way up through the Great Lakes and then back down through the rivers. I’m sitting in the Keys right now in Florida getting ready to launch ourselves back up to Vermont. And I sat in this little space to mentor teachers and administrators especially administrators throughout COVID, because we decided to live on the boat at that point.

LA: First of all, can I just say like that right now you kind of living the dream. And I can’t imagine or I mean, I don’t know if it was an easy decision or was hard, challenging. But to literally sort of pick up and leave get on a boat decide to live for like the next year or so. Was that an easy decision for you? Or was it like, second nature like it just was like you’re ready for it?

BB: So we were getting our ducks in a row to do something like that in the future. And then in this spring around February when COVID hit the laboratory school at the University of Vermont where I was interim director, and I was teaching in the early childhood programs, went on to reset remotely, and by April, it was clear that the university had no intention to reopen the laboratory school. And at that point, it was a somewhat traumatic year, I don’t downplay that, but, you know, it was hard ensued and that really sealed the deal for us. It really solidified the fact that here’s an opportunity the universe is saying like you can remotely do something from your home in Vermont or on a boat somewhere and you can go and do the American Great Loop and you can live on the boat and you can have sovereignty and you know the freedom to travel and see the world and meet new people. So that’s what that’s that’s how the decision was made. It was, it just was sort of like divine intervention. It was unfortunate, it’s still unfortunate about the school. We can talk about that too. Because that’s where a lot of my theories were co-created with teachers and that’s how you and I came to know each other through a grant that ordered me to go to your school. Yeah, and that’s been a huge aspect of my life at work my teacher education projects for over almost 30 years.

LA: I know you’ve been in the game for a while, a really long time. And I feel like you know you’re you know between me and just, you know, our mutual friends that we know you’re kind of the teacher mom, you know?

BB: I still feel the questions I know and I love it. It’s such an honor to watch teachers grow in their practice, you know, and in their personhood and see them stay in the field and make changes.

LA: Absolutely. So I guess I what I would love for you to share with people. There might be some new teachers listening to this or there might be more seasoned teachers that maybe feel you know a little bit burned out with everything that’s going on. What are just like when you’re going in to mentor somebody when you’re thinking about like when you’re starting what are just some of the things, that what are some of the questions that you ask them like what is how do you sort of sort of test the climate or figure out where they are and what they need at that moment?

BB: I sort of practice what I preach. I like to observe teachers, I like to ask them what it is that they’d like to share with me, about their practice. So I’ll use you as an example when I went to your school and I had the responsibility of connecting with you, you know, I watched you and then we talked, right and then it was like, share with me what’s going on? What are your questions? And as you sort of connect to a person at a heart level, you know, and they trust you got some trust and give them some feedback about what you see and ask questions. Then, you know, the more quiet conversations can start to emerge. As a mentor teachers really have to trust that I’m not going to be highly reactive. So I’m not going to go to their administrator and say, Wow, she’s struggling or, you know, she’s ethics, but never do that. Right. So really have to have that trust. And a lot of teachers the modality that they really want to talk through might be the phone, they may not, they may want to email me, or they want to do things in writing. So I really just try to figure out for each person, you know, how how do you connect best, how do you like to have feedback. I’ve had teachers who just want me to do running records because they’re overwhelmed. They don’t have a sense of their own presence. Some teachers are really good with videotaping, others are like please don’t I don’t want to see myself. So it’s really about having a big toolkit and then connecting to the teacher where they want to be I’ve been also in some schools and districts where they have a program that they want to use. I’m anti program let’s put it that way.

LA: Really tell me about why you’re anti programs or what do you feel like it doesn’t do? What is it missing?

BB: So I think what it does is just programming let’s talk about programming in general, right? So from the moment the child is born, we start with the programming you know, we start with the nouns we start naming things, we start telling them they have an X number of emotions and they look like this on your face and you know just programming, we deal with teachers here’s the program here’s the standards. And really in the programs for mentoring can look like there’s a form to fill out. You know? And what the program does is it limits. It repeats that history that’s not rich, that’s not heartfelt. That’s not It’s not teacher based, right? It doesn’t. It’s not coming from the practitioner. So what I tried to do and what I have always done in teacher education, and I think we did really well at the University of Vermont for years was to unprogrammed people and to unplug them from the programs and to say, “Okay, if these are if there are certain parts of the program that are aspects of a program that you are responsible and beholden to and accountable for, that’s fine, but that’s a low bar. Because what’s gonna keep you in the game, what’s gonna keep you joyful, what’s going to keep you energized, is outside the program. It’s, it’s your own creativity. It’s your own passion, it’s your imagination, it’s relationships”, and that’s why I’m outside the program. So when people ask me to use different forms, of course, I would do that, but in my own way, and so even as we were evaluating I was a superintendent for several years at the end of my public school career, which my career is bookended by UVM, right? 18 years and the front and three on the back. And I became a principal and a superintendent and as a superintendent, I worked really hard with my teacher’s association, teacher leaders, principals, to take the standard in the field which is a teacher evaluation system based on observation and evidence and turning it around. So is the teacher bringing the evidence the teacher asking for you to see them. Hear me as I am not as you found them at the time you signed up for. So we worked really hard at that. So that’s why I say that it’s a long answer to your question.

LA: I mean, well, that’s a game changer. Just the idea of having that control. I could think of many times like just as a, you know, just a new teacher being observed just that nervousness that you feel, like you said, because they’re sort of coming in at a time when it’s like you don’t know what’s gonna go happen instead of giving, you know, a teacher the choice to, you know, present like, I would love for you to see this. I would love for you to watch this and give me feedback on you know, on on this project I’m working on or this sort of s investigation that we’re exploring. I mean, that would be a game-changer

BB: In real time see me all the time. You know, know who I know what my practices do not boil me down to several 30-minute or hour-long observations, right? That’s why I say I’m sort of anti-program.

LA: Wow. Alright, so this might be an easy question for you. But what are some of the qualities that you think are most important in a new teacher? 

BB: Curiosity, a real desire to feel a sense of joy and their work to feel like to recognize the importance. I love for teachers to be able to see that they’re part of something really big, and at the same time, understand the importance of connecting to every single child, knowing that that child comes from a family and that they’re like, cutting their heart out to send it to you every day. So you see the importance of the family. Just this really be in be awake in the game, be present. And so the last course I taught was an emerging course in literacy across the curriculum. And I had I think 18 students and they were, you know, out in classrooms at the beginning of the pandemic and they were seeing a lot of things that were challenging and it made it brought that question of like, “Can I do this? Can I be in a place where, you know, children have to wear masks or where, you know, there’s mats on the floor instead of tables for them to use their body to try to write and things”, and it was really just about continuing to bring the conversation back to you can do anything if you put your mind and your heart to it, and think about it right? And really important also, just to go back to the question, to be positive, to be the most positive person in school not like sugar, you know?

LA: Right, right. Not crazy positive.

BB: To recognize how important it is to always be sort of bringing your your your best self even if that’s a questioning self, even if that’s a critical self even if that person that you know is an advocate as a an anthropologist, whatever it is that you’re bringing, bring your whole self into it. No, don’t be that person who speaks in only negative terms or sees only the deficit, sees only the problems, never be that person. Because, you know, even a young teacher won’t last long, and in a climate like that and with a self-concept like that,

LA: Right. Has there ever been a time working with like, like, do you have any like, sort of hot buttons like when it comes to working with novice teachers? Like what behaviors that you see like a sort of may like, I don’t know about that or, like, we’re gonna we have to maybe work on that. What are some of the things that you have seen that just as new teachers, you know, who may be listening to this, to think of that maybe haven’t been so great? 

BB: Oh, well, especially when working with new and young teachers, but also with teachers who have sort of been programmed.

LA: I was gonna say, or even like teachers who have like sometimes get settled in there. Just can’t learn. Yeah, don’t want to learn anything.

BB: I’m going to try to give you the umbrella then go down a little bit, a little closer to the practice. But the umbrella is sort of see the whole picture of what you’re responsible for and what you’re doing, the totality of it. Let’s not look at things let’s not look at the day a day in the life of your classroom in 30-minute intervals. Let’s not look at the work that you do with your students, as divided up into domains, as divided up into areas of the curriculum. Let’s look at the whole thing. Let’s look at the culture. Let’s look at the culture of your classroom. Let’s look at yourself in there. How do you feel when you walk into your classroom? Is this a room and a space that’s arranged for life is a space that’s arranged to provide totality? Can you move in here? Or is this like, one of the programmed rooms right with the posters and the bulletin boards and the chairs in such a way because that’s what everybody does? You know, you get indoctrinated early into the program of like, it has to look like this. Not true. I mean, years and years ago, I say years and years, well 20 or something years ago, right when the pre-primary schools in Reggio Emilia, were taking these sort of American pre-K practice and rattling it, aesthetics was one of the first things that people noticed they were like, wow, “How did you achieve that? How does that happen?” And thinking that oh, somehow if I switched my aesthetic away from plastic and primary colors to wood and green plants, everything would change. Well, we knew, you know, we know that that’s not true. But is the first step, right, it was the first step people could make because it was obvious it was physical. And it felt right and it felt good. So if I’m working with a teacher, new, novice, veteran, mature, and they’re, and I’m in a position to have a relationship with them to give them feedback, we would have those conversations like let’s walk through your classroom, “Tell me about this space, how do you feel in here, how’s it organized?”, you know, do all those things to get to know them. But really then to center on the practice would be what I see in my head is kind of a Venn diagram and it’s like, at the center of it is relationships. That’s the center of everything. So let’s put that right up front. That we’re talking about your practice. We’re talking about my observations. We’re keeping, we agree that at the center of everything are the relationships you have with children and what comes next, what’s around that is the environment. That’s what you know, in the Italian schools always referred to as the third teacher.

LA: Right, yeah. 

BB: And then here’s the other is “What you do, what are you actually doing?” And so the process is, for me, is always about observing and getting to know your children. “So what do you see who are they? What are they passionate about?” Not only what can’t they do that you hope and have a goal of instilling or sharing or teaching, but what can they do? And like, can they really that cycle of inquiry that gene gold paper from the University of Vermont sort of captured in a chapter in “Bambini”, a book edited by Lella Gandini about observe, you know, ask questions, put some projections, if you will, or some plans out there. Modify your environment. Watch again, see what happens and really get into that cycle of inquiry. Because from there, you’re more powerful. You know, you’re not waiting for the next lesson plan. You’re not looking at the next set of sheets that you need to do or complete. You’re really looking at the lived experience of children and teachers in the classroom. And if that’s your if that’s sort of the jam that you’re having on your toast every morning, like you’re not gonna get right now, in the same way as if you feel like you have to, you’re doing all of the have to’s and they’re not authentic to you, to your practice and in your heart. Right?

LA: Yeah, I agree. And I feel like you even just gave me like a little tidbit. Because I think as teachers we do have to sort of periodically just like you said, walk through our classrooms. Look at the different areas. What is this area giving? Right, what is inspiring, you know, is how, you know, and even sometimes just rethink, you know, our areas, rethink our setups, rethink how we have, you know, materials laid out and maybe what we could do differently but just sort of always being willing to change and evolve like I have found in my practice that that is vital to not being burnt out. You have to be willing to be flexible. You have to be willing to move on with the times. I mean, even this whole COVID pandemic, you know, the students I teach, they’re not vaccinated, and so they’re the youngest learners. And it looked very different. And you know, it was I gave an interview for Fairy Dust but I was talking about how I literally live across the street from a hospital and so you know, at one point I was watching them sort of bring these bodies out, outside my window, but then every day for four or five hours a day, I would have to switch off what I was seeing and turn on my teacher game and sit there and sing and smile and you know, be this person for my students. But then the minute I would turn off my computer, it would be back to that. And I think that you know, there are a lot of teachers now who are sort of just that balancing act that we do, whether it’s what you’re seeing whether it’s in your personal life, right you know, we try not to bring our stuff to work we try to like to keep that balance, but I know that you know, a lot of my colleagues are feeling a little burnt out, you know, they are feeling a little overwhelmed. And you know, some of them have, you know, people that they’ve lost or just, you know, like everything, you know, it’s not just one thing, it really is sort of this accumulation of the times but I guess just sort of what is there any advice that you would give us? You know, just sort of as we navigate, you know, these next couple of years, you know, even with everything going on, and you know, I know some teachers who love teaching are now thinking of leaving the classroom just because.

BB: You know, you’re bringing up something that this is really a time of, you know, profound fear and sadness and transforming practices, transforming systems, not always for the good, right that we may not think that their children’s or teachers’ best interests. All of these things are happening in our world. There’s war, there’s refugees, there’s so many things that when we look at them, we look at them a lot, whether it’s in the news and the media, on social media, across the street from our house and our family. They’re going to bring us down, right? They’re going to bring our frequency down, they’re going to bring put us into fear and the balance. We have to find a way to stay hopeful to keep finding joy. Whether you know maybe for one person that’s taking care of themselves. self-care is essential, right? It’s always been and maybe even more so now. But maybe for one person, it’s taking a walk outside every day big being sure to be a nature for another person. It may be that plus yoga, somebody else it may be about their diet, turning off their TV, turning off their screen, prayer. It could be music and dance. I love like when I’m teaching the undergrads, it’s so easy for them in their youth and they’re in there’s this like super buoyant period of their life to be able to tell me, you know, it’s my favorite music or this is what I love to do, or this is how, how I find joy or this is you know, they like their social and they want to be with their friends like they’re telling me all those things. It’s very important, but also a lot easier to sort of keep them buoyant than it is to work with somebody who’s going through something really traumatic or very sad and has worked with teachers who’ve lost their partner over the years or their parents have died or is a tragedy in their family. Or they’re going through a divorce. There are lots of things that happen that are super challenging, and they’re natural, they’re part of life, how do you get through it and still go into that classroom and do what you need to do? And I think kind of self-care making sure that you’re checking in with yourself whether it’s, if you need rest, get rest. If you need nourishment, find the nourishment if you’re if you’re not. If you don’t have somebody who can really listen to you and be a mirror for you like find that group find that person reach out like let your peer a peer that you trust know, let an administrator know if you trust them, and see if they can be helpful to you. I used to love to, as an administrator, both the principal and the superintendent actually at UVM too, teachers have you know in a lot of settings not all early childhood settings, but many have professional development money would be, to find ways for teachers to use that that were outside the norm because there’s programmed to think oh, I got to take a three-credit course. You know I can pick an online course. Well how much money you get the equivalent of you know, three credits five credits six credits, that can be a lot of money you know, we we managed to get public school kindergarten teachers to Pistoia Italy because we just asked, we asked the school board could you support that $5,000 That’s part of their contract to take them. 

LA: To take this trip which would change their lives.

BB: You know, to go to a different kind of conference to include travel. I think if we can all just continually question the programming whatever it is, like, why do we think that why is that assumption in place, we’d be so much healthier, you know, you’re still gonna have the reality of what’s outside your window, you’re still gonna have the reality of the challenge that you’re in, but you’re giving yourself like, whatever you can to help be stronger, more effective, more present, and to be moved, you know, setting your sights on where you’re going, not gonna forget who you are. But you know, you’ve got a vision for where you can go and the classroom can do that the classroom can actually be a great source of inspiration. 

LA: Oh, I agree. I agree. There’s been plenty of times in my teaching career, where I have stuff going on, but I literally walk into my room and it’s like, I’m here. And you know, I think children have a way of doing that just sort of, you know, because they they need so much love and attention like you just sort of, you know, really refocus and reprogram but I think something that you said that you know really sort of hit the nail on the head even for administrators. You know, when we are thinking about how we can support teachers in professional development. You know, you said something about thinking outside the box. And what does thinking outside the box look like? Whether it’s, you know, traveling, whether it’s self-care, like, there are lots of different ways to support teachers right now who may be feeling a little burnt out and you know, like you said, maybe that three-credit course is not the thing to revitalize them, you know, but really sort of thinking outside the box with self-care and how we support our teachers. So for those admins and I know you’ve been an admin for a little bit, but you also spent a lot of time in the classroom. I know for me, even though I’ve had opportunities to go to admin, my passion is really in the classroom. I have a feeling like who knows maybe down the line that will happen but I’ve really fought. You know, I’ve really gone back and forth and like fought to, like stay here. But I guess what are some of you know, things that like admin, could be thinking, you know, in sort of supporting their teachers, you know, what, what should they sort of just have on their radar as we go forward? 

BB: Well, I want to just cycle back to this thinking outside of the three-credit course I mean, even beyond education, like what inspires you may be learning to play an instrument.

LA: Maybe a photography course. 

BB: Look, look outside the boundaries of what you think is available to you because a whole world is really available. And so what the administrators, the best administrators, in my opinion, are the ones who really need the teacher, right? So where they are, and listen to them. And so if I have a teacher who tells me they’re very sad, I’ll use a real example. First-grade teacher, incredibly sad going through some big life changes. She’s feeling alone. She’s got some PTSD. She’s got, you know, responsibilities for an elderly parent with some health issues. Like there’s lots of reasons that this person should feel stressed or tired, and they come into the classroom. What do you need? I you know? I need help with organization. I really need help hitting the ground running I’m feeling overwhelmed by planning. Oh, you are? Let’s plan together. Let’s connect you to a person who doesn’t think about planning as a, you know, a thing you sit down and do for an hour a week, because maybe that practice that you’ve been doing forever, doesn’t fit your schema anymore. It doesn’t even fit the kind of life in the classroom that you’re trying to create. So let’s let’s find it. Let’s find another person in this context, who, who can do this differently, and often it was me you know, and just to sit down and think differently about your practice can suddenly like lift that burden of I need to fill out a lesson plan or I need to fill out a plan book to I don’t have to start there. I can end there. I can start with the joy I can start with, “When the children walk in this room just like me I wanted to be bright and cozy”. Okay, let’s start there. Right? As opposed to, you know, what, what activity you’re going to have in the writing area or what you’re going to do at 11 o’clock. Not always, not always the most inspiring place to start. So that I think administrators really need to also think outside the context. You know, when I was superintendent we were applying for a rural county in Vermont up on the New York Canadian border, five islands schools. Title One funds come through the federal government, states approve how you spend that money, and I would listen to the administrators listen to the teachers, we thought of all of the ways that the particular children in our communities and our teachers really felt they could be the most supported, the most joyful, get what they need. And so we submitted our plans, and we were soundly shut down. Like oh, that’s so unusual. You know, we don’t we don’t want to pay for a person who’s coming in to do art with children or read with children. We pay for programs we pay for Reading Recovery, or we you know, these other things, and we had to really just fight quite frankly, fight in a very organized and intellectual way to say, but we aren’t like other schools. This is a little island school. Maybe there’s 80 Children in it, you know, and they’re here for seven or eight years. Like we know what they need, and they don’t need that. In fact, that model is unaffordable, and not sizable for this environment. But I’m gonna go back to that where the programming is so deep, that even at the top where the money is coming from if you want to call it the top I guess, I don’t know. They said that’s where the funding is coming from. And there’s just one way to do it, you know, X alternatives that work for those children, you know, in suburban white school districts in Burlington or the outside of Burlington, Vermont? They’re not working for my kids up here, and they’re not like somebody’s got to say, we welcome all these diverse ideas. We welcome the concept that schools and children are unique, and that communities are unique.

LA: Schools are unique. Yes, yes.

BB: We want them to be. Why we would all be the same? You know, I just think we will never attract the kind of people that we really want to have in the classroom who are, you know, feeling, feeling like I’m part of the culture developed, I’m developing culture with children and part of this community and that, that I want to be it’s, it’s like I belong. 

LA: Well, when you were when you did like super intendant work. Did you work with like, principles directly to sort of do away with the ideas of like, just sort of breaking out of the constructs of programming, like, is that part of like, what your work with them was?

BB: Absolutely. We know, it’s a balance because you’ve got, you know, testing protocols and tests in general things that you need to do. But, you know, how can we do those in a way that supports your school to not be filled with anxiety and to not be filled with dread? What do we need to have like some mobile person and personnel that can come in support different schools at different times and sort of cascade the schedule so that, you know, there can be lots of people with healthy food and you know, supporting children to go outside, whatever it is, how can we support you to do that and, you know, it comes down to relationships between the superintendent and their principals, but also just really examining all aspects of practice and figuring out you know, what’s, what’s sustainable? You know, what, what’s sustainable, stop looking at the way the constraints of practice or the constraints of expectations and start thinking outside the boundaries or the borders of that. You know, joy, humor, lightheartedness, beauty, all of those things have a place in the classroom, but they’re the first things that go.

LA: They are they are. So, you know, just bringing those back, bringing those back, I think, are so vital. 

BB: So vital.

LA: Especially right now. Like you’ve said so many things, and I’m just like, yes, yes, yes. Like it’s, it just resonates so much because I think again, like a lot of teachers like myself, are feeling some you know, just constraints around everything and, and what does it look like making joy making, you know, like, that, that part? The most important part again, you know, like, yes, we have the constraints. Yes. There’s the testing. There’s the assessments, there’s all of that stuff that we sort of have to get through during the year. But then what does it look like sort of making those benchmarks like joy, like, like connections like relationships and, you know, and making that the focus point, again,

BB: I think that one of the strategies that I really love is the aspect of, of the practice that many educators in the United States and all over the world, in fact, have sort of honed for their own way of documentation, the practice of documenting your work. And so we made it I’ll give you an example. I was mentoring a preschool teacher, as after I had gone back to UVM two years ago now, I guess, two years ago now two school years ago, and she had to submit student work samples as part of her first-year evaluation. And I said, and there were specific, right, these specific ones and I said, but there’s no rule that says you can’t submit more. So I want you to submit all of those some of the beautiful writing you’ve done for families about the child, the child labor, the child in the classroom, this series of, you know, this group of children drawing together and co-creating like a collage mural, where they’re right where they’re actually more articulate. Their forms and their marks on paper are more articulate than what they’re asking for over here. Like, show the expansiveness of what you do. Documentation has been a really good means I think for self-reflection for teachers, but also for for assessment, catching more than any one assessment or data point is ever going to give you right.

LA: It’s huge. I mean, I still rely on it for everything, you know, but yeah. But guess what, our time is up. I know it goes by quickly. And you know, this is just the first season. But if you’re willing, you know, in a couple of months or so I would love to have you on again because I just feel like there’s there’s so much wisdom there. That you have and just your compassion, not just your passion for teachers, but your compassion for them, I think really speaks and I think that’s, those are the voices that we sort of need right now. In our heads. 

BB: Well, I would be happy to come back. One of the things I think we didn’t even get to talk about those, you know, is to have the kind of administrators that I’m alluding to, we have to support them in a different way and they’re going to need some.

LA: Yes, as a matter of fact, we couldn’t. Would you talk a little bit like, what does it looks like supporting administrators you know, in ways that they can better support teachers?

BB: Well I’m almost at the point where I think the next iteration of my career is going to be to support administrators in the field in their spirit, you know, and some in their divinity and in their understanding that they have the capacity to hold all of these people in sort of a sacred space, if you will, of that school and that, you know, I have I’ve had administrators tell me they get sick when they get to the parking lot, that they cry when they get home at night. Like it’s very stressful. It’s a lot of responsibility, whether they’re doing it beautifully. We don’t like the way they’re doing it or there’s something that can be improved. It’s still a lot of responsibility, and they’re holding that in their body. And I really want to do what I’ve tried to do in the last couple of years with the administrators I work with, it just keeps circling around to what are you doing for you and how are you taking care of you. How can you let that go? How much of that’s within your control? Let’s let’s practice. Let’s practice a narrative that you can use with the powers to be over you. So you can challenge the program that’s getting foisted on you, and you’re going to meet resistance. You shouldn’t be meeting resistance. It doesn’t make sense. Now you’ve got a problem. Right? Let’s turn it around. Find your voice. Let’s open up your throat chakra you know. Let’s have those conversations and not be afraid that somebody’s going to think you’re, you know, too unusual or doing something too outside the norm. Let’s make it normal. let’s normalize if you will, being passionate, being heartfelt, and leading with love.

LA: Leading with love but also the self-care aspect. You know, and I think in you what you said is sort of one of the main reasons why I haven’t made that transition to admin is because I know so many admins who you know, like it, to me it just seems like it ages them.

BB: Yeah. It takes you away from the pulse.

LA: Yeah, it takes you away from the pulse and it just sort of there’s a draining that I see. You know there are times when it’s like the the joy is not as evident.

BB: That’s how he created the system. And now we have to look at it and say, Is it working? And if it’s not, it’s on us, it’s on us. Nobody’s gonna come along with magic wand and change it you know, it’s on us. 

LA: Yeah, absolutely right. And so if if people are looking for you know, looking to let’s say hire you for mentorship Are you available? I know you’re sailing the seas right now, but I guess I also do want to let you know that Barbara does have a blog at www.Betheship.com where it’s delightful, and she really just sort of is sharing her journey on the boats. The boat’s name is, what is it, Irene?

BB: Irene the dream. One of the blog posts is about where the name came from. It came from somebody who made my childhood just more heavenly than it would have been without her my great aunt Irene. But the blog I took a break from while we were here sort of getting work done on the boat. You might have even heard some of that in the background today. Getting ready to sail again and I’m going to be restarting it. I tried to write about presence. I think being present and being fully present, finding the ways to slow that heartbeat down and be right where you are so that you can, you know, what they come to terms with making the world a better place but that’s the world your classroom, your home, your relationships, your visions, you know, just be there be present.

LA: And the most amazing thing is like even just as you’re talking like I see myself in you, like I see you know even when you just was like slow the heart rate down and just be present like and that your mentoring has literally stuck with me to this day like I still do those things. I still trying to find the joy. I still like you said, you know, sometimes things don’t fit anymore. Like it’s okay to reinvent yourself as a teacher. Like those are things that I still go to even now. And if only everybody was so lucky. But if people do want to reach out to you or if there is a school that is looking for someone for mentoring how would you want people to get in contact with you?

BB: I would think that emailing me at Barbara at betheship.com would be the most direct way to get in touch with me. I have set aside time my week for the past couple of years to mentor in three different environments with three different individuals and that was my capacity while we were at sea and if we’re if and when we get back to land and have a dirt address again. But in the meantime, that’s pretty much my capacity, three environments with three people and I would be very open to new people in new environments.

LA: Oh my goodness. Well, I know I’m going to be tapping into this. I feel like this conversation spoke to my heart a lot. So thank you. 

BB: You’re welcome. Yeah, you also have a place in my heart. I mean, I’ll never forget some of the projects that I saw unfold in your classroom from Miss Chicky. To letter writing to the blueprint in the yellow pages for the park.

LA: Yes, remember that? Yeah. And even then, like I feel like my emerging curriculum has really like just, it’s the idea for me of emerging curriculum has exploded, like every year really is something new and so was it like right before COVID hit matter of fact, it was the class that I think we went into quarantine like we school got shut down. We are my class was obsessed and I mean obsessed with the story of The Three Little Pigs. Now, there are different versions there are versions, and the three little pigs where the wolf eats every single one of them. And there are versions where they each get away and go to the brother’s house. Like there are all these birds and then there’s the version of like the wolf telling the true story about how he wasn’t going to let a ham dinner go to waste. So, you know, we did all that. You know, we put on a play and you know, we reenacted the book, but sort of like as a cumulative. So as we were going to the end of the year, they were so fascinated. And so I was thinking like, what could we do to really just, like make it happen for these children? And so I found these pigs. I found these pigs, and I guess if you have like a party, a birthday party, they’ll bring them to your child’s birthday party. But so we had pigs, live pigs brought into the classroom. And Barbara I would never do that again. The way that those pigs screamed, we’ll wield and when I held when it was so loud, and I could see all my student’s faces they were like, Oh my goodness. So even when I was like, does anyone want to hold it friends and they were like, no. But it was just it really was like, you know, like the fantasy was amazing, the wolf and the story and the character development. But the real pigs in real life were like a whole other story, but it was amazing. It was amazing to experience that. I won’t forget it’s still a story I tell but also I think they won’t forget it either. Yeah, it brought these three little miniature pigs who were oh my gosh, like crazy. 

BB: That would be a great conversation to have in the future, like what are the next steps when you’re going deep and you’re going long with a group of children on topic? But when misstep could be a great story, but maybe there’s a different you know, step. 

LA: No, but I love those missteps. Like I know now I will never bring pigs into my class like, the way that I don’t know if you’ve ever heard a pig squeal. 

BB: Oh yeah. I grew up on a farm.

LA: It’s so loud. I didn’t know that you know, growing up in the city. Kids didn’t know that. So it really does sound really like took them badly, and I can see, yes so they, you know, they got to feed the pigs but I can tell that initial the initial squealing and screaming in our classroom. They’re little eyes were so like, oh my gosh, like this is a lot. 

BB: You’re like I’m on Team Wolf now.

LA: Right? Exactly, exactly. So but even just that like just how you know everything is everything is magical. Even your missteps even the rethinking, you know even the trying new things making it happen.

BB: For those children to see you the teacher this is being this beautiful you’ve loved them and cared for them and taught them to be like wow I hate had no idea that would happen that is so healthy and refreshing that like you go.

LA: And I was like apologizing like I know this is a lot friends I know this is a lot.

BB: Awesome, what a great story. That you.

LA: Thank you, Barbara. I love you. I love you so much. And I look forward to being in touch very very very soon. And I’ll be I’ll be checking in on your blog. So whenever you’re ready to start it back. 

BB: Oh, yeah, April, April. Yeah, we had out of this marina on April 1 back to the ocean and back to the blog.

LA: Oh, my goodness. Okay. Great. Thank you so much for joining us today. On the Powerful Pedagogy. Again, I know you filled my heart so I’m sure there are others that are also going to be touched by your wisdom and insight. 

BB: Wish you tons of love on this project. 

LA: Thank you.